Charlotte is 26 and lives with her boyfriend—who she’s been dating for almost four years—in Chicago. She makes more money than he does—a lot more. About $35,000 per year more, in fact. And while they both recognize that they work in different industries that progress at different rates, and that he’s a little younger (and at a different point in his career), they also feel that, financially, they don’t feel like they’re on equal footing. Though they’ve started to talk more seriously about their future—getting married and having a wedding, buying a home, and the like—they’ve struggled to figure out how to split their expenses now and how to discuss money (and their money concerns) without angering the other. “I almost don’t want to talk about money because I don’t want him to feel any kind of pressure from me [to earn more money] outside of what he’s putting on himself, but I know that’s unrealistic for combining two people’s finances in the future,” Charlotte says. Charlotte knows her boyfriend isn’t saving as much for his—or their—future as she is, and she doesn’t want to feel resentful about their unequal contributions toward their shared dreams. She also isn’t sure if discussing signing a prenuptial agreement (or prenup, a contract that will outline how they’ll split their property and savings if they ever divorce) before they get married will hurt or help the situation. To help Charlotte manage her feelings about earning more than her boyfriend and find a way they can even the financial playing field, so to speak, O’Connell Rodriguez turns to Farnoosh Torabi, a personal finance expert and author of When She Makes More: 10 Rules for Breadwinning Women. Torabi knows the challenge of making more than your partner—and the added difficulty of being a woman who makes more than her male partner—all too well. She has made more money than her husband and recalls feeling the tension of making more while battling cultural stereotypes (internalized or otherwise) that say the man in the relationship should be the breadwinner of the family. To help Charlotte (and anyone struggling to develop a balanced financial situation with a romantic partner, regardless of how much either makes), Torabi recommends resolving money conflicts with patience, dialogue, and—perhaps most importantly—compassion. The key, she says, is making sure both parties feel like they have an active role and status in the household’s financial future. “It’s about leveling the playing field tactically, but also emotionally, so that you both feel like equal players in the relationship,” she says.
Transcript
Charlotte: My boyfriend and I have been living together for almost two years now and there’s a pretty decent gap between our two salaries and this tends to cause some tension. Serena:I was the only one who had a real salary, but in hindsight, I’m just like, man, I really shot myself in the foot. Deanna:So it’s wanting to feel like I can still contribute to my current partnership. I have to just say, like, I’m not putting a financial burden on you. Stefanie O’Connell Rodriguez: This is Money Confidential, a podcast from Real Simple about our money stories, struggles, and secrets. I’m your host, Stefanie O’Connell Rodriguez. And today we’re talking to a Chicago-based listener we’re calling Charlotte—not her real name. Charlotte is 26 years old and she and her boyfriend have been together for almost four years. Charlotte: We’re about to take the next step that comes in a relationship. And you know, a lot of times, those are big money tasks. So we’ve been talking about it more frequently—how are we saving? What do we need to save for, how much should we be saving? How much are things going to cost? Stefanie O’Connell Rodriguez: A 2018 survey found that many couples don’t share even basic financial information with their partner, like spending habits and salaries, much less debts, credit scores and savings plans—so the fact that Charlotte and her partner are even having these discussions feels like a good sign. Do you have any memories of the first time money came up in your relationship and what that conversation was about? Charlotte: I think the first time it came up was when I made the jump from my first job to my second. And it was, I want to say an increase of like $15K or something like that. And I also want to mention that he’s two and a half years younger than I am. So he started his career a few years after I did. So starting at that entry level, compared to someone who just saw this big bump, that was something he was a little nervous about and voiced in our first few discussions. It was, ‘I’m not making as much, I want to be able to split things 50/50.’ Stefanie O’Connell Rodriguez: Nearly 30% of American women in dual-income heterosexual marriages earn more than their husbands, according to 2018 data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. But despite the professional and educational gains made by women, a 2019 study found that male stress levels rise if their female partners earn more than 40 percent of the household income. What is that gap like between your incomes now? Charlotte: Now since making another jump I think we’re at $35k difference. Stefanie O’Connell Rodriguez: How do you feel about it? Charlotte: I do see his POV and I’m very appreciative of the fact that he wants to make things as even as possible. But I do understand that we’re in two completely different industries that progress very differently too, in terms of promotions, salary increases all that. I almost don’t want to talk about money because I don’t want him to feel any kind of pressure from me outside of what he’s already putting on himself. But I know that that’s unrealistic for like combining two people’s finances in the future. Stefanie O’Connell Rodriguez: Yeah, so it’s interesting because it’s like the pressure that comes from the differences in making the money is also now affecting the relationship when it comes to managing the money or maximizing the money. Do you split money-related tasks, such as paying the electric bill or buying groceries, at all? Charlotte: I think that’s our goal, is to eventually delegate certain tasks to each of us. Since moving in together I have put my name on all of the bills, just because it’s easier that he’s sending me his rent money for the month. And then it’s just easier for one person to kind of put it towards actual rent, towards utilities towards, you know, electric, gas, all that kind of stuff. But in terms of like other financial situations, like we haven’t really talked about, oh, I’m saving X percent of my paycheck each month to go into savings for a wedding or for a down payment for a house, anything like that. We have started to have those conversations, but kind of what I mentioned before, I don’t want to put any kind of pressure on him and I try to only bring it up sparingly because I don’t want to cause any unnecessary tension or fights. Stefanie O’Connell Rodriguez: If you were to be getting married, how do you think that would change this discussion? Charlotte: There’s no hiding the fact that weddings are expensive, that houses are expensive. All of those steps you have to save a lot for. And I have been aggressively saving during the pandemic. I know that I’m saving more than he is because I have more each month to save in my paychecks. I want to say that I’m better than this, but it’ll probably come back with some backhanded comments, like, oh, I’ll make, I’ll sign the check for this, or I’ll sign the check for that and all that kind of stuff. And then that’s just gonna continue to spiral the tension between us and something I’m not really looking forward to. That’s something that I wish I had more tips on how to handle, because he’s definitely willing to work through it together and find a compromise. But if things keep going how they are now, I know that long-term, it will probably do more harm than good. Stefanie O’Connell Rodriguez: It’s interesting because on the one hand you do have this financial dialogue that sounds like it is a lot more transparent than a lot of couples, but on the other hand, it sounds like talking about what you want your money to do for you both as a team is also a source of tension. Charlotte: I just feel like that kind of conversation, talking about the steps and how to save and, you know, we want to make a wedding happen. We want to make a house happen. Those kinds of conversations are great, but I feel like it then puts pressure on him to find a way to make it happen. When in reality, it’s not just him, that needs to make it happen. It’s the two of us. Stefanie O’Connell Rodriguez: In addition to how the household money is made and managed, differences can also play out in how couples manage unpaid labor. 41% of women still take on the lead role in housework in heterosexual relationships when the wife is the primary breadwinner, compared to just 14% of men who report doing so when the husband is the primary breadwinner. So I asked Charlotte about how those dynamics play out in her relationship. Charlotte: We try to clean the apartment about once a week. Usually Sunday morning is our cleaning time and I do three of the rooms that are relatively easy, like vacuuming, dusting, that kind of stuff, just picking up things. And then he does the bathroom and the kitchen, which I would not want to do. So he does the things that I don’t want to do. And other things like we’ll split off each week, like I’ll pay for groceries and then one week he’ll pay for groceries and we’ll go back and forth on that. He is very helpful around the house. I would say for the most part our roles and responsibilities in terms of like keeping the apartment together are pretty even. Stefanie O’Connell Rodriguez: It sounds like you’ve really created a very equitable egalitarian relationship, but what’s tricky is like sometimes the things are outside of your control. So if you literally can’t split things 50/50 because somebody is making more, then that seems where it gets a little bit muddy and a little bit confusing. Charlotte: I offered, you know. I’m making more money. I’m willing to put more money towards rent each month, because I know I can afford it. We pay $1650 for rent each month and I pay $1150 of that and then he pays the remainder. And it’s not necessarily that it would cause any fights between us, but I could just sense his like sensitivity around the topic because of our differences in how we handle money and discuss money that it almost made him feel, um, he’s voiced this before, but it makes him feel like he wants to be able to support me in a relationship and in our future and with our family and everything. And he sometimes feels that when we have these conversations, it’s just apparent that he’s not currently at the stage that he can do so. Stefanie O’Connell Rodriguez: Do you have any joint accounts? Charlotte: Not currently, no. Stefanie O’Connell Rodriguez: If you were to get married would you change any of that? Charlotte: I think we both have the intentions of keeping our money, a lot of our money separate, but do like having one joint bank account for like fixed monthly cost. But at the end of the day, we definitely want to have our own bank accounts still because I don’t ever want to tell him how to spend his money and vice versa. If he told me I couldn’t buy something, I’d be like, who do you think you are? Stefanie O’Connell Rodriguez: How about a joint savings account? Cause it seems like a lot of the pain point is again, planning for this shared future, right? That’s where the logistical things kinda feel tense, more than the checking account expenses… Charlotte: I think a joint savings account is honestly the best route forward for us. But one thing that I worry about with that is kind of what we were talking about earlier. we’ll both see the balance that’s in there, or whatever the term is, and I’ll know how much I’m putting in. And then in return, I’ll know how much he’s putting in. And I feel like that could cause some issues in the future. Like, well, I’ve put in a thousand dollars and you put in 400. And hopefully it’s not that much of a difference, but just giving an example, I could see something like that in the future causing issues. Stefanie O’Connell Rodriguez: Does the rent differential cause issues? Charlotte: Not currently, no. Stefanie O’Connell Rodriguez: I bring up the rent differential because what I’m hearing is like the way you split your rent based on your incomes works for you. And it would be interesting if you treat your savings, your joint savings as a bill at the beginning of each month—if you took that same approach. Charlotte: I think I would like to say that I’d be a good person and in theory would be all for it. But again, there might just be a bad day or a bad week when I just am on petty mode for everything and looking to start an argument. And I feel like that would be an easy way for me to kind of like… (snaps fingers) start that argument. Stefanie O’Connell Rodriguez: Tell me more about petty mode. Tell me about petty mode. What does that look like? Charlotte: Oh, man. There’s just some days when, you know, you had a bad day at work and it’s like, I know that he’s understanding and willing to talk with me and listen to me, vent and everything, but sometimes I’m just like, ugh. I just want to start a fight. And that sounds so unhealthy and not good. And it doesn’t happen often, but in my head I’m like, ah, you could really go off about this right now, but you’re not going to, but if the dishes are in the sink and I just told you that the dishwasher was dirty, things like that. Stefanie O’Connell Rodriguez: Does the financial differential ever become one of those things? Charlotte: It hasn’t. I think that would be a very low blow for me. And I know that we have a very good relationship in terms of finances and are very willing to talk about everything. And I feel like if I start making jabs like that, I… he would shut down. I feel like I’m no…rightfully so, anyone would in that kind of situation, if they’re being attacked on how much money they make, so I’ve never used it as ammo before. Stefanie O’Connell Rodriguez: Speaking of, If you were to legally get married, have you talked or thought about having a prenuptial agreement? Charlotte: We’ve talked about it, but I don’t think it’s something that either of us are on board with, because I mean, you, you think of prenups and you think like intent to get divorced. That seems like you’re almost jinxing it from the beginning. My conception or maybe misconception of prenups come from all the bad things that you see in the media. It’s like, oh, they got a prenup before they got married and now they’re divorced. So he saved himself having to give her millions of dollars or whatever it is. My mother-in-law is forcing me into signing this prenup, blah, blah, blah all this stuff. I only see it almost being as like, you can’t marry me until you do this. And like almost using it as a threat or like, what are your intentions in marrying me, money better not be one of them. So sign this prenup. Stephanie O’Connell Rodriguez: Yes, they do get a bad rep in the popular culture, but really are…with the exception of like the millionaire classes, are really just designed to split assets in the way that best work for the couple going into the relationship. Charlotte: Yep, and I think if I was talking to a friend who just recently got engaged or just got married and they were talking about it in a way, that’s like, ‘Oh, we just wanted to make sure that we were set up fairly from the beginning.’ I would look at it completely different than, ‘Oh, you’re looking to get divorced in a few years and that’s your way out, you know?’ So I think it just kind of depends the way in which it’s talked about because talking to you and having you say, you know, it’s a way to start it off even from the beginning makes total sense. But if I was to have that conversation with my boyfriend tonight, he’d be like, all right, is this you’re breaking up with me? Stefanie O’Connell Rodriguez: Deciding whether to sign a prenup, figuring out how to share expenses, talking openly about financial insecurities and dissatisfactions in your relationship—I don’t want to pretend these are easy conversations to have. They’re not—especially since most of us have so little, if any, experience having them. 70% of couples say they fight about money more than anything else. And when unequal incomes are thrown into the mix, especially when they upend traditional gender roles we may have grown up with and unwittingly internalized—it can bring up a lot of stress and feelings of inadequacy and even resentment. After the break, we’ll talk to a financial expert who literally wrote the book on managing both money and relationships as a female breadwinner. Stefanie O’Connell Rodriguez: Personal finance expert Farnoosh Torabi’s book, When She Makes More: 10 Rules for Breadwinning Women, isn’t just based on her research and expertise, it’s also based on her experience as a breadwinning woman. Farnoosh Torabi: You know, In my marriage, it was less about my husband actually ever communicating to me passively or aggressively that he was uncomfortable or that this was not cool or that he was getting his ego bruised. To the contrary, but yet I felt tense in my marriage, in my relationship about it because of the way that I was raised. And I couldn’t really celebrate this in my culture as an Iranian American, this was like very unusual. And it came with a bag of assumptions. Like if you’re the female breadwinner well, then obviously your husband couldn’t be successful and he couldn’t be ambitious and maybe you’re too ambitious. Like, what’s up with that? Why are you making all this money? What’s your plan? What’s your plan when you have kids and you’re going to be the breadwinner, can you slow down? Do you want to slow down? And so suddenly, I felt like I was at this epicenter of a problem and it was less about my husband providing that tension and more me going through all of these voices in my head from my cultural side, but also America. In America, we live in a very patriarchal society where Pew Research, as of, I think last year, surveyed men and women, and a majority overwhelming majority of men and women 70% said, they think it is the man’s responsibility to make more in a marriage and provide in a marriage. Very few thought that that would be appropriate for a woman. Stefanie O’Connell Rodriguez: Even when it’s not explicit or even conscious, traditional gender roles —that is, the idea that male identifying partners should be primary financial providers, while female identifying partners should be primary caregivers —can shape our expectations. And when our expectations are challenged, it can create discomfort, or in Charlotte’s description of her relationship, tension. Farnoosh Torabi: It’s one thing to say that there’s tension, but then where’s it coming from? How is it showing up? Are there words being said or is it passive aggressive or is it just all in your head? Because you have been raised to think that making more as a woman is quote unquote weird or that it is necessarily a problem, not for you, but maybe for your husband. And so we carry as women, I think sometimes these doubts and fears, and that creates tension in a relationship when, on the other side of the equation, your partner might not care all that much. So I’m not here to excuse if someone is not being very nice about it in the relationship, or very fair or understanding about it. But I think it’s, we need to take a minute and just really understand what is the source of this tension? Farnoosh Torabi: I have a feeling it’s not about the digits. It’s about what the digits represent. Because when we have feelings about money, what it’s really about, it’s rooted in so much. It’s not fair to dismiss somebody just because they’re having knee jerk reactions to a financial circumstance, and they haven’t been given the opportunity to explore that. And so I want to encourage couples to explore that: have compassion, discuss. We don’t talk about it. And so it has the possibility to erupt in a relationship—and how sad that the relationship has to end over that when it could have been resolved through patience, dialogue, and coming from a compassionate place. I use that word a lot because in the absence of that, you end up losing friends, losing partners. Stefanie O’Connell Rodriguez: I love the point around compassion because I have always really associated with compassion in a relationship and money around, like, somebody’s debt. If somebody comes to you with a lot of student loans, I’m not going to be like, ‘hey, you should break up with them.’ I think you have to be compassionate. I love the idea of extending that compassion also just to someone’s general assumption or expectation or their upbringing or their mindset. You can be compassionate about those things in the same way you’re compassionate about the numbers. Maybe that’s even more important. Farnoosh Torabi: It’s also part of being a partner is recognizing that you’re not going to always see eye to eye. You do come to the table with far different backgrounds, and yet you did get married or you did commit to a relationship. And so I always say to couples in any financial dispute or any financial difference they’re having, whether it’s income disparity or I’m a saver and he’s a spender or whatever, it’s like. Okay. You can’t really change who you are really at the end of the day, you know, but let’s remember why we got into this in the first place? What were the common goals that we shared? What, what are we working towards? Because then when you have that North star and you remind yourself again of that North star, you’re willing to be more patient with these differences and find the solutions as opposed to focusing on what’s not working, focus on what you want to work and make it work. Stefanie O’Connell Rodriguez: Like Farnoosh, I’m a fan of using values—that is, what we believe is important—as a strategy to shift from arguing about money, to coming to a mutual understanding around money in a relationship. Replacing statements like ‘we have to’ or ‘we should’ with ‘it’s important to me’ and asking ‘what’s important to you?’ can release some of the pressure and implicit judgment that comes from trying to be ‘right’ about money in our relationships, without disengaging from the conversation around money goals entirely. Farnoosh Torabi: What she and her partner are craving is a leveling of the financial playing field, which can feel impossible when somebody is making many more dollars than the other person it’s like, how can we be equals? She makes $35,000 more than me, it’s over. No, because money is more than just how much of it you have. It’s how you manage it. Right. So going back to our goals, um, what are the things that we want to afford in our life together? And for somebody who makes less, perhaps it’s harder to pay for these immediate costs. So it’s about figuring out, as a person who makes less, let’s start there. What are some of the things that are important to you in our relationship that you do want to be at the forefront of financially? Because we’re going to share a lot together more than a wedding. It might be a house in the future. There might be a car in our future. There might be, uh, vacations in our future, child savings accounts for college. So what do you want to participate in that would make you feel like an equal player? Men are conditioned in society to be providers and financial provider was like their exclusive title for centuries. It’s like so hard to unravel that and untangle from that. So when that is no longer their calling in a relationship, when they’re not needed to be that financial breadwinner provider, they do feel, some of them like missionless, like, what’s my purpose here? And they do want to provide, so it’s like redefining providing, you know, and even with the lower salary that you make, you can still be a significant contributor to our lives, perhaps in the form of a longer term saver for us. So my husband, he’s fully funding 529 plans for both of our children. So guess what? He is paying for their college education. And it’s not about me versus him, but like sometimes you just want that piece of ownership in your relationship to feel like it’s tangible. Like I paid for that. I’m proud of that. It does, it makes you feel proud. Stefanie O’Connell Rodriguez: Well, I also think there is this conflation of equal and same. I think a lot of my conversation with Charlotte came to this idea of like, ‘Well, if we can’t earn the same exact amount of money, then splitting everything 50/50 doesn’t make sense’, but it was really hard for her to figure out, ‘Okay, so if we’re not splitting things 50/50, because we don’t earn the same then what is the formula?’ As though it was going to be a formula. But what I like about what you’re kind of presenting here, especially if they are going to be moving into a marriage where the money really does become more legally shared, this idea of having really different roles. I think it gives that opportunity for ownership that you were talking about. Farnoosh Torabi: And really it’s about leveling the playing field tactically, but also emotionally, so that you both feel like equal players in the relationship. Maybe not equal earners, but equal contributors and teammates. I think it’s a little challenging for the younger generation to wrap their head around the lack of you know, 50/50, uh, because think about all that we do. We live with a roommate before we get married and everything’s equal. We Venmo each other. It’s like, we pay, I’ll pay this, you pay next time. And so there is this habit of more financial equality within our friend circles. And so you get married and you have to kind of make your own rules. You really do. You have to make your own rules and the rules are not black and white. But most, I think, lead with where you both feel really good about how you want to contribute and what’s feasible. Stefanie O’Connell Rodriguez: I do want to ask you your opinion or thoughts on prenuptial agreements. Farnoosh Torabi: I like them. What can I say? It’s an insurance policy for your marriage contract. Because, you know, you’re signing a contract, right. We forget that maybe because the marriage is really like a ceremony and lots of drinking, but you are signing that contract. It’s not like a contract for, you know, a Roku channel. This is like your marriage. So you want it to go well, but most people in this country end up divorcing. I think they’re nastier than they have to be, because there is no protocol. People are coming at it with different expectations, but you lay the expectations ahead of time. You get it in writing and then you can like, you know, really just focus on what’s more important in your marriage, and that’s, you know, you get an insurance policy for your car, for your rental I got an insurance for my diamond ring. Why didn’t I get insurance for my marriage? I’m still figuring that out. Stefanie O’Connell Rodriguez: As Charlotte is planning to take the next steps in her relationship, I wanted to ask Farnoosh about one of the most common questions I hear from couples who are doing the same—how do you start to merge money with your partner? Farnoosh Torabi: I like to have each person in the relationship experience a level of financial autonomy, where they don’t have to feel like they’re asking for permission. This is actually more important for the person who makes less, whom I’ve heard oftentimes, especially from the men, like, I don’t want to feel like I’m asking my wife for permission to go buy something or I get financially, “mommy’d.” They say, okay, that’s a whole problem, but like women too, you know, we want to feel like it’s my money. My money is my money and your money is your money. We gotta to have a little bit of that set aside for the two of us. And then we have the pot in the middle. That’s going to contribute to our shared expenses. Figure out what you’re both good at and you want to do, and you can do efficiently. For some person who makes less, it could even be managing the money. I interviewed a lot of husbands who made less, but they took so much pride in being the ones to pay the bills and be on top of their retirement accounts and make sure that, you know, contributions were being made and all of the things. So it doesn’t mean that just because you don’t make the money, as much money, that you can’t be financially involved and still a leader in your financial life together. Just because you make more doesn’t mean that your time is worth more, doesn’t mean that your job is more important. maybe, you’re not saying that out loud, but maybe that’s like the inner dialogue in your head. You got to get rid of that BS noise because it’s not true. It’s just not true that, that you cannot use how much you make as a marker of your success versus your husband’s success, or the fact that you’re a more valuable contributor in society, like, I’m sorry, teachers make nothing. Um, they are essential so it’s all, it’s not about the income and it shouldn’t be, but yet I also hear from people who make less in relationships that they feel less than. So I think it’s really important that you just recognize that. Stefanie O’Connell Rodriguez: So how can you feel like a financial equal with your partner when the numbers on your paychecks are decidedly different? Remember, you and your other half are more than just your incomes and your relationship is based on more than the amount of money you earn. Use your values, what’s important to each of you, as an entry point into what can be sticky and uncomfortable, but critically important financial conversations—remembering that you don’t have to agree on everything to come to a mutual agreement. Approaching these conversations from a place of compassion can also offer you and your partner the space you need to figure out where feelings of discomfort and tension around your income disparities are coming from, giving you a chance to explore internalized assumptions that might not be serving you—whether it’s expectations shaped by your upbringing and traditional gender roles, or the tendency to conflate your salary with your self worth. Logistically speaking, remember that leveling the financial playing field doesn’t have to mean earning the same income or splitting everything 50/50. Income is just one piece of your financial life, and even your money is just one piece of the value created in your household. Especially for couples committing to longer-term partnerships, stepping back from analyzing each and every expense and the exact right way to split them, to take a more holistic view of the household finances and labor, both paid and unpaid, can be helpful. It can give each partner a feeling of autonomy, purpose and ownership within the relationship. Just remember, that while it’s okay to divide the primary responsibility of different financial tasks like paying the bills or managing the investments, it’s important that both partners be involved in understanding where the money is going, and that major decisions about strategy are made as a team. Stefanie O’Connell Rodriguez:This has been Money Confidential from Real Simple. If, like Charlotte, you have a money secret you’ve been struggling to share, you can send me an email at money dot confidential at real simple dot com. You can also leave us a voicemail at (929) 352-4106. Money Confidential is produced by Mickey O’Connor, Heather Morgan Shott, me, Stefanie O’Connell Rodriguez. Thanks to our production team at Pod People: Rachael King, Matt Sav, Danielle Roth, Chris Browning and Trae Budde. If you like what you hear, please consider leaving us a review on Apple Podcasts, or telling your friends about Money Confidential. Real Simple is based in New York City. You can find us online at realsimple.com, and subscribe to our print publication by searching for Real Simple at www.magazine.store. Thank you for joining us and we’ll see you next week.
